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Tropfrog wrote: I am suppriced how many topics in this forum People tell the novices that they dont have a bonsai

As I am surprised how often this discussion comes up.

It is at best a "potensai", a Base material for bonsai

That would mean you can call every single young plant a potensai, regardless it's potential, and that's just confusing. This is just a young cutting, grown quickly for quick gain, made to look somewhat like a bonsai, but with no bonsai qualities. Such plants are often called mallsai.

At best, this is a bonsai imitation - a plant made to look like a bonsai. Real bonsai are not made to look like bonsai, but like minature, but real, trees.

The best advice i have ever heard: fall in love with nature and everything will fall into place in time. That is The best way to develop bonsai skills.

Very poetic. And a bit silly, to be honest.

That would mean you can call every single young plant a potensai, regardless it's potential, and that's just confusing.

Nope. You cannot call every plant bonsai material. Most plants are sold at nurceries for use as ordinary garden plants with no plan whatsoever to be a future bonsai. It takes a devoted bonsai entusiast with a goal of turning it into a bonsai, before you can call it bonsai material.

With the strong backbudding on Junipers, basically every plant have the potential of beeing a future bonsai given time and devotion.

Br
Magnus

Tropfrog wrote:

That would mean you can call every single young plant a potensai, regardless it's potential, and that's just confusing.

Nope. You cannot call every plant bonsai material. Most plants are sold at nurceries for use as ordinary garden plants with no plan whatsoever to be a future bonsai.

Exactly. That's why this cannot be called bonsai material.
These nurseries are not selling them as plants that in the future can become a bonsai, there is no future plan, they sell it as the final product - bonsai - which they are not.

With the strong backbudding on Junipers, basically every plant have the potential of beeing a future bonsai given time and devotion.

I don't see how the backbudding on junipers makes every plant a potential bonsai. Both statements aren't true either.

Exactly. That's why this cannot be called bonsai material.
These nurseries are not selling them as plants that in the future can become a bonsai, there is no future plan, they sell it as the final product - bonsai - which they are not.

I dont really see any differences in our statements here. This is not a finished bonsai. In fact it is not possible to buy a finished bonsai at nurceries at all. Given the Labour intense work it takes to develop, it is simply not possible to make profit from finished bonsai outside of Japan.

However, if someone wants to create a bonsai out of it, then it is considered a bonsai material. At least in my world.

I don't see how the backbudding on junipers makes every plant a potential bonsai. Both statements aren't true either.

If you dont see potential in a plant doesnt mean that nobody else is seeing it. It is quite snobbish to Believe anything else. Strong back budding makes more possibilities and let the artist create a tree with less limitations.

I would not buy this product myself. There are much better materials to be found in nurceries that are not Potted in shallow containers and they give much more value for money.

Br
Magnus

Same discussion, same arguments and sorry, I do not really feel the need to continue this discussion, it's all been said before.

The juniper we are referring to is by no means a bonsai, a pre-bonsai or even good bonsai material. There's nothing snobbish about concluding that there's an industry that sells sub-par material to gullible people, labelling these mass-produced sticks as bonsai, and getting extra money for something that's not really worth it. There are better ways to spend your money on better material.

Can I not see the potential? Of course I can. This one has even more potential:

Yes, in my world this is better potential as well, given time and good care. But please note that I have nerver claimed that anyone else could think the opposite. And I have never sand that it is snobbish to say that it is good business to sell cuttings for more than they are worth just by putting it in shallow pots and call it bonsai.


We live in a world of Quick fixes and profit. This is very Hard to combined with the more than 1000 year old art of bonsai. I would say impossible.

My main message that might got lost in the discussion ia that i dont think it is good for the hobby to go right to the "this is not a bonsai" on beginner discussions. I think it is better to guide to the possibilities there are on this one or other options if a beginner wants help. After all it takes a few years to get it right. Most of us have several trees, but just a few bonsai.

Good discussion, Thanks!
Br
Magnus

Tropfrog wrote: We live in a world of Quick fixes and profit. This is very Hard to combined with the more than 1000 year old art of bonsai. I would say impossible.

My main message that might got lost in the discussion ia that i dont think it is good for the hobby to go right to the "this is not a bonsai" on beginner discussions.

Valid points, but I do not consider people that buy a mallsai a beginner in the art.

Most of us have several trees, but just a few bonsai.

Very true, and I do not consider the ones I have that might be called bonsai, real good ones. I sometimes look at my collection in despair and wonder "when will I ever have a good tree, like the ones I see at exhibitions?" :dry:

Tropfrog wrote: With the strong backbudding on Junipers, basically every plant have the potential of beeing a future bonsai given time and devotion.

Strong backbudding on Juniper? I guess we have different opinion on what strong backbudding is, I suppose.

Tropfrog wrote: i dont think it is good for the hobby to go right to the "this is not a bonsai" on beginner discussions. I think it is better to guide to the possibilities there are on this one or other options if a beginner wants help. After all it takes a few years to get it right. Most of us have several trees, but just a few bonsai.

Not sure I agree. In my view it is best to make it clear to people that not every stick in a pot is a bonsai. How can people get started in the hobby if they have no idea what they are getting into.

Auk wrote: I sometimes look at my collection in despair and wonder "when will I ever have a good tree, like the ones I see at exhibitions?" :dry:

In line with the discussions here.. You have to buy better material. Not every plant that you can buy has the qualities to make a bonsai within a reasonable amount of time. If you are not critical of the base material, you can only with luck lay your hands on a tree with true potential. For me, the horizon is at about 15 years. If I am not convinced that within 15 years I can get something to a basic bonsai level, I will get rid of it come cleaning-out time, or if I am focussed enough I will not get it into my garden. Over the last years I have become more critical than when I started. I wish someone then had warned me to not waste time on plants that will never get there.. There are exceptions. Just for the fun of it I dabble in cuttings and seedlings. But I do this fully aware that it is very unlinkely any of these will become show-level trees in that timeframe.

leatherback wrote:

Auk wrote: I sometimes look at my collection in despair and wonder "when will I ever have a good tree, like the ones I see at exhibitions?" :dry:

In line with the discussions here.. You have to buy better material.

I do have good material. Recently purchased a Sabina yamadori, and it wasn't cheap. I have been staring at it since I purchased wondering what to do with it.

It's not just the material, it's also skills, talent, experience. And patience, lots of patience.

Of course I do agree with what you write. Life's too short to waste on bad material.

Auk wrote: I do have good material. Recently purchased a Sabina yamadori, and it wasn't cheap. I have been staring at it since I purchased wondering what to do with it.
It's not just the material, it's also skills, talent, experience. And patience, lots of patience.

So.. no time like the current. Make a plan. Go to a workshop with an artist you admire. Ask them for their input and guidance.

Do some sketches.

Send the forum a bunch of pictures.

Let is work on you, and in early spring put your ideas to the tree.