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Hi Everyone!

How does one determine the size of rock needed to create a *root-over-rock* form? Surely one must have to consider the size of the sapling or young tree being used in the procedure as well as the desired finished size of the tree? Yet, how does one do this...is there a *simple* formula? :huh:

well from what i have seen there is no real formula for size, i have seen ROR plantings with the rocks twice the size of the tree. i think its all in the effect you want to portray.the rock itself has to have intrest much like suiseki stones do

Thanks Keith for your reply.

I took the scenic root to my dental appointment yesterday which follows the Otonabee River (part of the Trent Severn Water System). There are several dams between where I live and the next little town and I noticed they have significantly reduced the water level of the river. Lower water levels mean exposed rocks! :woohoo: So on my way back I stopped along the road, hobbled down to the river bank and adopted some rocks and a couple small stones. Ooohhh it's so hard to choose...but, I found some very cool looking rocks for future root over rock forms. My gosh, if I could, I would rock hunt for hours on end and completely lose track of time! :lol:

I got six good sized rocks, four of which stand easily on their own. Some have a natural equatic type moss on them which is a deep, mossy green colour; then there is some rusty coloured mineral staining combined with the lovely gray colour of the stone. Really interesting shapes and textures including some tiny fossils. I also got two small stones...want to go back for more of those! I'm off to search for info on suiseki stones. If anyone knows of some good links, please feel free to post them. Catchya later!

OMG suiseki has so many rules to follow it is soooo crazy. last time i met bill valevanis (big time bonsai guy in rochester,ny)he showed me one of his stones he bought.it has been a suiseki for over 300 years and had a burlwood case that inside was carved to perfectly fit the stone :pinch: :ohmy: i meen PERFECTLY just crazy.he picked it up turned it one way and it looked like a mountain with a white waterfall,turned it again it was a "hut" which is 1 kind of suiseki style.then he turned it again and it was a flat top plateu with a waterfall. i have hundereds of stones and rocks and only a few might be consisered O.K. suiseki at best. i guess we are not in the right geological area for good suiseki production .
it is a pretty cool artform so don't hesitate looking into it,just i don't know any particular sites to look at tho

Hmmm...sounds very interesting. I do believe tho that some purists can get rather fanatical about *rules*. Is one supposed to follow the rules of Suiseki to do a root over rock? Eventually the rock is going to be covered by roots anyway. :blink:

With regard to determining the size of rock verses the plant however, I am referring to a young seedling or sapling that is being placed over a rock for the first time. It seems logical to me that placing a young sapling over a 3 foot boulder would be rather futile. Is there a rule of thumb as to the size or age of a sapling before it can be placed over a rock? If not, can small but well-developed seedlings begin to be trained over a rock? And again, how do I determine the size of the rock used compared to the size of the sapling/seedling? And last but not least, can the size of the rock be increased as the young tree grows?

...sigh...so many questions...:S

well no, suiseki rules do not apply to ROR plantings.the rock is picked then the tree is trained to grow on it.i really don't see why a sapling wouldn't be the perfect way to start,as long as the rock is burried. logically it would give the most probable oppurtunity for roots to grow over the rock seeing that it will have no other place to grow with it in the way.
as for increasing the rock size, unless you have some rock food the rock will stay the same sorry had to say it. seriously tho once the roots have grown over the rock you would have to begin the process all over again if removing the first rock didn't kill the tree
if you have found a rock that suits you and you can visualize the final project than go for it. i find looking a pics gives me ideas just do a image search for ROR bonsai

:lol: Hahahahahaaaaa...very funny, Keith! Rock food...good one!

Thank you for your advice. I was looking at a photo in a book on bonsai today and it looks like the tree has been grown over the rock then later, once the roots have formed and strengthened the rock and tree were slightly off-set to each other. The roots hold the same shape as the rock. It looks really cool! I'll see if I can scan the photo and post it later.

Hi Keith,

excellent observation. I know rock can get smaller. But bigger is an effort; All my tries have been in vain so far.

Leslie: The tree / root / rock offset: It is the result of poor grip on the rock by the roots, followed by an too-early reportting: The rock has moved and they owner has not bothered with widging it back in. In real ROR you expect the roots to be flush with the rock, in a lovers' embrace, afraid to ever have to part.

Are you boys done poking fun at me now? :whistle:

Jelle, you recently did some root over rock plantings...how did you determine the size of rock verses the size of the young saplings you used? Was the length of roots the most important factor; the size and development of the sapling or was it more the visualization of the final product? Can a well-established seedling be trained over a rock and, if so, is there a minimum size to the seedling that can be used?

Now this second part is somewhat off-topic however, here is the photo of the offset Root over Rock. I hope this works as it's a pdf file.

Sorry all, obviously that didn't work. :pinch: